Up, Up and Away with Jerry Ordway

A lengthy look into the Superman alum's incredible career

Brandon Keaton sat down with legendary comic book artist extraordinaire Jerry Ordway on December 9, 2023. What follows is their conversation in its entirety.

First contact.

Brandon: Mr. Ordway, I’m thrilled to get to talk to you.

Jerry: Thank you, Brandon.

Your work was such a positive part of my formative years, and even though I’ve never been to any major conventions, you are one of those guys I would wait in line for. You probably get that kind of adulation from a lot of grown up children like me.

People have been very kind to me and my work over the years. I enjoy chatting with them all at shows too. I sometimes get annoyed looks from people behind them in line.

Wait… folks give you the stink-eye while they’re waiting to meet you?

And when it’s their chance, I will talk to them too, not just a quick signature or something.

Just kill ‘em with kindness, I guess [laughter]. Jerry, I always try to get a sense of who someone is through their backstory. Would you mind kicking things off by telling me a bit about where you grew up?

I grew up in Milwaukee Wisconsin, in a mostly Hispanic neighborhood, where my mom owned a tavern. We lived in back.

What a wild childhood you must’ve had. Were you a comics or a TV kid, or a "go outside and play" kid?

We had no place in our neighborhood that sold comic books, sadly. I think the Fredric Wertham troubles of the 1950’s carried over to the early 60’s, as far as comic sales were concerned. I watched TV, and also played outside with my brother and my friends. My brother was athletic, so I was always playing catch with him, or basketball, or even football.

Sounds kinda similar to my upbringing in the 1980s. Did you get bit by the art bug pretty early on?

I did draw at an early age, but I believe most kids do that. Someone shoves a coloring book and a box of crayons at you to give the adults a few moments of peace.  

Oh, yeah, my parents did that too [laughter]. I guess colouring books were kind of the original iPad. I used to stare at Looney Tunes characters and try to redraw the images freehand.

I have early memories of drawing while watching cartoons. At one point, in the early 1960’s, a customer at my mom’s tavern gave us a grocery bag of coverless DC comics, and I have vague memories of 80-page issues of Superman and Batman. And then in 1966, a cartoon came on called the Marvel Superheroes, which featured Thor, Captain America, Sub-Mariner, Iron Man and the Hulk. I was hooked. I entered the TV station’s art contest, drawing Thor, and waited. They would show three winners each weekday, in three age groups, displaying the drawings on a wall while the host announced the winners. And one day, there was my Thor drawing!

Whoa. That’s one of those core memories that’ll never leave you. You must’ve been over the Moon.

I was thrilled, especially with the dollar bill that arrived as the daily prize. I didn’t win the final prize, though, which was a new bicycle. But I couldn’t complain.

Did your family help cultivate that talent in you?

Oh yes, they were supportive of my earliest drawings, which of course kept me drawing more.

So, what were you like back in school? I mean, would the Jerry of today be friends with the old Jerry?

I had friends, but because I went to a Trade high school, the students came from all over the city, so there were no classmates that lived in my neighborhood. I still hung out with my neighborhood friends, and I was a pretty good kid. I’d say I was not a classic nerd, because my brothers instilled a love of fitness and athletics in me. I played basketball a lot. And I was a pretty social kid, not isolated.

I wasn’t much bothered by being a geek in school, even though I didn’t quite fill the bill of one. I think I was a semi-geek.

I’m not afraid or offended by the nerd badge either [laughter].

When you were in school what comics were influencing or inspiring your early style?

I think the strongest art influences happened in 1967, when I finally discovered Marvel comic books on sale at the train station. I think the two that stood out immediately were John Romita on Spider-Man, and Gene Colan on Daredevil and Iron Man Tales of Suspense. I Also recall Jack Kirby from drawing Captain America then. Later on, I was enamored by Wally Wood and John Buscema.

Breaking into the biz.

You were given an offer of work at the Chicago Comic Con when you were only twenty-three years old. Is that right?

Well, firstly I had made a trip to New York City in 1977 with my friend Mike Machlan, to try and get comic work… only to be told no.

Ah, the old turd-sandwich of rejection.

Yeah, I spent the next few years working at a commercial art studio, trying to become an illustrator. I also drew a series of coloring books for a local client, through the art studio, which featured the DC superheroes, and then the Marvel Super-Heroes. By the summer of 1980, I was working full time already, but at the urging of friends, went to the Chicago Comic Con to have my work reviewed by DC editor Joe Orlando.

You must’ve had a belly full of butterflies.

Well, I arrived in a hot hallway at 10 a.m., and waited in line to be seen. We shared the hallway with a bunch of people dressed up as Doctor Who, so it was pretty hot and smelly from all of us sweating in the non-air conditioned July weather.

Oh, yuck.

By the end of day, I was one or two people away from having my work reviewed, but Paul Levitz, then Joe Orlando’s assistant, kept coming into the room to beg Joe to stop for the day because he hadn’t had a break since morning. Joe said no, and kept going.

Did you manage to get in?

I finally made it into the room, and Joe was kind of blurry eyed and was having trouble understanding my drawing samples, which were from the DC coloring book I drew. He was looking at a picture where the reader was supposed to “find the stars from Wonder Woman’s shorts” elsewhere in the image, like in the sky or whatever.

Oh, so her underwear were blank [laughs]?

Joe was just so confused, why did I not draw Wonder Woman correctly?

Uh oh.

I felt doom approaching, when Paul Levitz returned, again trying to drag Joe off to dinner. Paul looked down at the art, looked at me, and said, “Jerry Ordway! We didn’t know how to contact you!”

He actually recognised your work?

I was stunned, and came away with the promise of work. It was Paul who had approved my sketches and final art for that coloring book I had done, but since it was drawn for the client, Western Publishing, they saw my name but no contact info. So, let no one tell you that luck doesn’t play a part in our lives!

That’s incredible. Were you pinching yourself that you’d “made it”? If I’m not mistaken you were soon inking for guys like Carmine Infantino and Dave Cockrum.

Well, I was thrilled, of course, but also in a weird spot, as I had a full time job already. When the first inking assignment arrived, I had to try and do it in the evening and then on the weekend, as DC wanted it done in a week. But I got it done, that Carmine Infantino pencilled story, and they sent another. By the Fall, I had done a couple of “The War That Time Forgot” as well as a short thing over Trevor Von Eeden pencils for House of Mystery I think. Around that time I got a call asking me if I wanted to ink Teen Titans over George Perez. I know they had an inker already on that, but I guess George had seen my inks and wanted me.

That’s a holy cow moment.

I of course had to turn it down due to my current job. Then a few weeks later, they came at me again, to finish All-Star Squadron, which wasn’t starting until January. I basically was talked into quitting my art job for the freelance artist life by my friends, including John Beatty, who I used to talk to on the phone from time to time. John had just started getting DC work by then.

Working at DC.

It sounds like everyone you’d met up to that point was quite friendly. Did you find the working environment at DC competitive or nurturing? Or both?

Well, when you are living so far from the DC offices, all you have are phone conversations. I didn’t make real connections until I saw the DC people at the next Chicago Comic Con in July 1981. But my editor Len Wein, and the editorial coordinator, Karen Berger, were supportive and helpful. Later on, meeting Dick Giordano and the new coordinator, Patty Bastienne, I did feel part of the family. That is why I stayed with DC then. I had gotten Marvel offers soon after my early ink work was in print, but I kind of felt loyal to DC.

Who are some of your favourite collaborators from that time, and why?

From my early days? I am not sure if you mean collaborators as the way I might understand it.

By that I mean any other artists, writers, inkers that you worked closely with.

I mainly feel like I was doing a job as an inker and finisher, and didn’t feel too collaborative. That of course changes when I finally got pencilling work. We worked from an outline, or plot, and as the penciller, I would adapt, and add story elements that fit the idea. So that felt collaborative, getting that story input via staging the story page by page. On All Star Squadron, Roy Thomas was the driving force and I had no major story input, outside of the additions I could add. My time on Superman was definitely collaborative, as I was writing and drawing, and interacting with Mike Carlin and others. Me inking a Joe Staton short story is just me trying to make the pencils look their best. That’s a creative task.

I see what you mean. Your resume goes back a good ways, so I won’t be able to get to it all. But I have to say, Crisis on Infinite Earths with George Pérez? Really? I mean come on, Jerry, fuhgetaboutit [laughter].

Well, I heard about Crisis when I was drawing my last issues of Infinity Inc! I had to draw the Monitor into a few panels of Infinity, as a teaser DC was doing to promote the Crisis a year in advance. Then I went off and inked eight issues of Fantastic Four over John Byrne. While I was doing that, DC kept sending me covers to draw, and trying to get me back.

You really were part of the family. Was “Crisis” what lured you back?

They finally talked me into taking over finishes on Crisis with issue #6, because Dick Giordano was having trouble inking Crisis while still holding down a management job at DC.

That sounds like quite a workload, for you and him.

Yeah [laughter]. I agreed to the job, as I would be done with Fantastic Four by then, and also it would allow me to draw a DC Presents Annual for Julie Schwartz. Then DC pressed me to start Crisis a month early, with issue #5.

So the month I did my first Crisis issue, I had to ink my last Fantastic Four, and to make it even more interesting, Julie [Schwartz] wouldn’t let me get out of the DC Presents Annual job, though I was able to get out of doing pencils for that. But that same month, I had thirty-eight pages of that in ink, over Ed Barreto’s pencils.

Damn, you were burnin’ the midnight oil.

Yeah, to prevent a nervous breakdown I enlisted my studio mate Al Vey to help me out by inking backgrounds on FF and DC Presents. We did four to five pages a day until all those jobs were finished! After that month, it was still a formidable task to do finishes on Crisis over George Perez’s many paneled pages. 

Let’s jump back to Infinity Inc. and All-Star Squadron for a sec. Were you given any pushback on what you couldn’t do with those books, or was it ‘Ordway or no way’?

Infinity Inc. came before Crisis, and was kind of fun to work with my friend Mike Machlan on the character designs. Mike was supposed to pencil that, with me inking. But DC switched us around because they worried about Mike being able to pencil the book on time. After a year on that, I felt done with DC and working with Roy [Thomas].

Why’s that?

The reasons are complicated, but it related to getting a pay raise from DC, a disappointment in the Infinity Inc. storyline, and the fact that when you worked for Roy’s books in those days you wouldn’t get offered any side projects from DC-New York.

How come?

Because Roy kind of walled you off from that, to keep from losing me on his books. So ultimately, it made me leave for Marvel… and having the chance to work with John Byrne, a creator I admired.

Sounds like you made the right decision. And did that lead you to working on Man of Steel?

When I was on Crisis, Dick Giordano told me DC was going to start all the DC titles over with new teams, and new issue #1’s. He said I could draw Batman or Superman, but said he thought “I was more of a Superman guy” which I went along with.

Superman is surely considered the “golden goose” for anybody in comics. Were you working toward that in your mind, or were you just riding the wave and letting the chips fall where they may?

As Crisis neared the end, the relaunching of the whole line was not in place, and Superman was not ready yet. I spent some time co-plotting a Crisis sequel called Crisis of the Soul, with Paul Levitz, and was set to do that in 1985-86. Karl Kesel was going to ink, and Len Wein was set to write dialogue.

Crisis of the Soul sounds interesting. Why didn’t that materialize?

The editor, Bob Greenberger was shifted off the project, and Mike Gold was brought in. Next I knew, it was revamped, and I was left out of plotting the story, so I quit. Byrne pencilled it, as “Legends” and I went back to Marvel to draw three issues of the Fantastic Four, with Roger Stern replacing Byrne.

That’s a lot of chopping and changing.

It was meant to be short term, until the new Superman stuff was ready. So, after that, I went back to DC to draw Superman. Marv Wolfman was the writer for the first year, then Byrne took over, allowing me to finally co-plot the stories. After John left, I started writing and drawing.

What did your family and friends think about you working on Superman?

Well, Superman is the most well known fictional character in the world! Everyone I saw was impressed that I was on Superman comics. It really opened my eyes to how well loved the character is.

1 9 8 9.

To that point, I think there’s something that can happen when you’re a kid where you become enthralled by something, and it just stays with you all your life. The Tim Burton Batman movie did that for me, and really was the start of my love of comics. Do you remember how insane ‘Batmania’ was back then?

Yes, Batman was the closest thing to a best seller that DC had then, when their other books weren’t selling as well as Marvel Comics were. I remember the excitement in the whole industry when the movie was announced, with Jack Nicholson playing the Joker. I was friends with the editor, Jonathan Peterson, and we used to talk about how movie adaptations weren’t given the all-star treatment like when Archie Goodwin and Walt Simonson did Alien, or even Al Williamson doing Flash Gordon and Star Wars. So we were primed to do a Batman one with actor’s likenesses, and nice printing.  

How did your landing the gig on the movie adaptation come about?

I had been a guest at a London comic show in October of 1988, and DC comics president Jenette Kahn got us into Pinewood Studios to see the Batman sets and departments as they were preparing to start filming in a little over a month’s time. So, when I returned to the US, I was ready to sign on to draw the adaptation.

And you got to work with the great Denny O’Neil. What was that experience with him like?  

I got to know Denny before that, so it was just another day in comics! Denny had written many of my favorite Batman comics, so it was cool to have him on the project.

You’d have known how the film’s plot was going to play out well before everyone else did. Did you struggle to keep it a secret?

Well, Denny was the one who adapted the script from the movie screenplay, but the movie was rewritten while filming… so it was tricky to keep the comic in sync with the movie.

Your adaptation’s really faithful to what’s on-screen. The likenesses of the actors are superb. Had you seen bits of the movie beforehand?

I was drawing the comic while the movie was still being filmed, so I had a bunch of set photos to help with likenesses and background settings. I drew model sheets for Michael Keaton, Jack Nicholson and Kim Basinger, and had to get them to sign off on approval for me, for their likenesses. That was before I drew anything. Once they signed off, we didn’t need to submit anything as we went along for approvals, because it could have wrecked the already tight deadline if I needed to do revisions.

I interviewed screenwriter Jonathan Gems recently and he said that things on the movie had gotten so crazy that even Nicholson was writing some of the third act [laughter].

At a certain point, Denny decided he didn’t want to deal with rewriting, so Jonathan [Peterson] and I did that. Remember, we were working from photos shot on the sets, and trying to match that with revised movie script. We finished the comic by the first week of April.

Were you just going off the dialogue in the script to put a lot of it together?

The model work and other special effects were unknown to us, so we had to guess at a lot in the second half of the adaptation. When Jonathan and I saw the finished film in June, we would high five when we got stuff right. And they cut a few short scenes that we had included. Otherwise, we did well.

Keaton’s Batman.

Do you recall any anti-Michael Keaton sentiment in the biz? I know there was an awful petition sent to Warner Brothers, but I was ten years old at the time, so in a way it didn’t quite register for me that he might not be the guy who “ought” to be playing him.

Fan reaction was bad, but they were not making the movie. Keaton had done a movie called Clean and Sober right before, do you remember?

I saw it after Batman, but yeah he’s so good in that.

And that was a drama, so I felt confident he would be great. And really, he was a strong choice to play against Nicholson.

Totally. He has this ability to emit this almost scary kind of manic energy.

Many other actors would have not been able to go toe to toe with Jack.

The ‘89 Batman movie is pretty definitive for me. Is there a version of Batman, whether it’s in the comics or the shows, that is definitive for you?

I think Neal Adams Batman is my go-to, as I was a teen when I first saw and loved it. Those were the Denny O’Neil written ones. I’m also a fan of the Marshall Rogers version that Steve Englehart wrote.

Is Keaton your favourite Batman?

Movie wise, I think Michael Keaton is my favorite. That’s my favorite movie costume, hands down. Loved Bale, and Affleck, but the Keaton Batman was the best.

I was shocked when he came back for The Flash. I still can’t believe that actually happened.

He’s the best thing about the Flash movie!

Amen.

Yeah, they gave him the best story arc in the Flash film. Sadly we will never see the Batgirl film he was in, due to Warner-Discovery writing it off.

The thing about Keaton’s portrayal that really anchors it for me is how he plays Bruce Wayne as this obviously tormented guy. But some fans don’t like those movies because Batman “kills.” What’s your stance on that?

DC had a New York screening of Batman Returns, and I remember Jenette Kahn was pretty adamant that Batman wasn’t a killer. And he clearly killed some of the Penguin’s henchmen in the beginning of that film. Me, I get that the movies are going to do their own thing.

Exactly. Movies are different from comics, and don’t need to be 100% faithful to the source.

Their audience is broader than the comics. Non comics fans as well as many readers wonder why Batman didn’t kill the Joker years ago!

Well, he killed him in The Dark Knight Returns, but you don’t hear anybody whinging much about that [laughter].

They’re just stories, in my opinion, adapted for different audiences over 80 years, so they will change with the times.

Superman At War.

Let’s hop over to Superman. I’ve always loved Christopher Reeve. There was just something special about him. But there was another image that defined Superman for me… a poster that hung on my wall as a teenager with a striking image of Superman pushing over a tank. Do you recall that piece and how it came about?

DC was doing retail posters, and I was asked to do one. I always grab most opportunities to paint stuff, so I was happy to jump in. I think it was meant to tie into a story we were doing at the time in the Superman comics, a time travel thing. That’s likely why it was Superman fighting Nazis.

Superman meets Indiana Jones.

Yeah [laughter]. They used the image again, in a Superman pin-up comic, done after the Death of Superman, so maybe your version was that one, pulled from the comic book?

Yes, I think it was.

The first one was a retail poster around 21 x27” in size.

Okay, I’m going to have to look for that on eBay now [laughter]. By the way, Adventures of Superman #481 was the very first Superman comic that I ever paid for, right off the spinner rack.

Ah, I remember the ghost train cover! Kerry Gammill drew that issue?

No, that was Tom [Grummett].

Right.

I wasn’t big on monsters as a kid, and I remember the skeletons on the cover kind of freaked me out… but I was compelled to buy it. Were there any books like that when you were young that stick out in your mind?

Yeah, when I was a teen, I don’t think any images scared me. But I remember being blown away by Berni Wrightson’s Swamp Thing stuff, especially a splash page he did of a werewolf! That would have scared me when I was younger.

Most things that unnerved me were from the books that Wizard Magazine was praising… Sandman and the Vertigo stuff. I know Frank Miller was anti-Wizard, and maybe some other creators didn’t like it. Do you remember being on one side of the fence or the other?

Wizard was a part of that time period. It thrived in the era of foil and lenticular covers, where fans thought every comic would be valuable in ten years. I read it, and liked it, though knew it was all hype. At one point, it outsold many of the comics, so that says something.

My brother and I read it voraciously.

I’d say it is fondly remembered by fans who were 10-14 years old in 1993.

I turned fourteen that year, so your statement is accurate [laughter].

Those were their “golden years” of comic collecting, no doubt.

Ordway, Grummett, and Jurgens. You three are my personal Superman favourites. My super “trinity” as it were.

Well, thank you.

I always felt like your personalities came across in your work. Any fond memories of working with those two gentlemen?

They are both still my good friends. I have known Dan since we met at a Chicago Comic Con in 1981, when he was drawing Warlord for DC and I was doing All Star Squadron. We have worked together many times over the years, not just on Superman. Tom is someone I met on Superman, and we made a good team on the Adventures of Superman title.

Tom Grummett, in my opinion, is undersung.

He’s a really good storyteller. We see each other at comic shows, and always try to have dinner or a drink and talk about the good old days.

Killing Kal-El.

Speaking of the good ole’ days, I read that you always joked about killing Superman, and one day the rest of the creative team took it seriously. Is that accurate in terms of how the Death of Superman project materialized?

Mike Carlin decided we’d work better together, and we had a few early story meetings up at DC’s offices early on, when Byrne had left, and it was Roger Stern and me writing two titles. As it expanded to 3 and then 4 titles, the story conferences got bigger.

Carlin would place large white cardboard around the room, all with a grid drawn for each month of Superman comics, one board per month times six or eight. It was a lot of blank space to fill with story ideas, 16 issues per board. I jokingly started one meeting by going up to the last board and writing “Superman dies. The End.” on the last space.

I love it. Sounds like you were the class clown of the group.

Everyone laughed, and it broke the ice for us to start adding story ideas to the other spots. No one likes a blank sheet of paper. Anyhow, during the meeting when we were trying to work out this big battle in Metropolis with Superman and a big hulking strong guy… and someone asked, “Okay, they fight, a knock-down drag-out fierce battle destroying half of the city, but then what happens?” Mike Carlin chimes in “Maybe it's like Jerry is always joking—Superman dies!”

So that’s when it went from just a bit of fun to becoming an actuality?

I think I asked, "How could we say that Superman actually died, and then have him come back? Seems like a cheat.” Roger Stern then piped in with, “But we don’t know what death means to a Kryptonian!” And we all liked that ambiguity. It gave us wiggle room so the fans wouldn’t riot when Superman came back.

I don’t think the youngsters today quite understand how big of an event it was. My own parents were asking me about it, and even though they paid for all my comics, they never seemed overly interested in what I was reading up until that point.

Yes, it was a huge phenomenon. We all wanted people to buy Superman comics, and we succeeded beyond our dreams. All of the creators did comic store signings with crowds lining up, huge numbers of people. It was kind of scary, and I like to think of it as our “Beatles moment.”

That was a special time… the Eighties and Nineties. It must’ve been tougher to get everyone on the same page before smartphones. Was there a lot of head-butting about the story itself, or was everyone mostly congenial about things?

Well we weren’t working on stone tablets, you know [laughter].

Beepers and snail mail…

Fax machines and Fedex deliveries [laughter]. But really, this is why the Superman story meetings were key—they were exactly like a TV show’s writer’s room. Everyone threw in ideas, or tore apart others ideas.

It never came to blows or anything like that?

It was a lot of back and forth, arguing and all that. I recall that we had spent the previous day filling in the blank wall charts with ideas about Clark Kent and Lois Lane’s wedding. Then Mike [Carlin] decided he wanted to wait to do the wedding stuff, in case the Lois and Clark television show might not survive enough seasons to get there.

Ah, so the big event was originally going to be the Kent-Lane wedding?

Remember, we were not selling a lot of Superman comics in the comic stores at the time. We sold 70% of our numbers on newsstands, and we really wanted comic stores to buy more, so a tie-in to a TV show would have helped us. Little did we know then that our replacement storyline would do that job for us! So on day two of the story thing, we tossed around ideas. Dan Jurgens pitched a “big fight, like Jack Kirby did at Marvel.” The idea was shot down, but nothing else got traction. So, I put Dan’s idea out there again, saying we could do the big fight stuff our way—lots of characterization, higher stakes.

Great way to get the readers sucked right in.

Yeah, people would be killed or displaced as building were destroyed. That was the key—it had to have high stakes. Once we agreed Superman would die, then we all came up with the Funeral and then World Without Superman. For people in Metropolis who took Superman for granted, they would realize how much he meant to them, after he was gone. It was really a group effort, hammering out those stories.

I’m still surprised DC let it happen. The people in your personal life—and even you yourself to some degree—must’ve been amazed by the idea of it all.

Well, we did have to get permission from Jenette Kahn, DC’s president, as well as Paul Levitz and Dick Giordano for Doomsday. They were worried about not having Superman in comics while he was dead, but we assured them we had a lot of good stories to tell. The other problem was that the Batman office had the Bane storyline planned, where he would break Batman’s back. We successfully argued that there was room for both of the storylines, and they agreed.

Doomsday!

You’re a co-creator on the actual Doomsday character. Do you remember what your specific contribution or creative input was with him?

As I said, it was a group planning effort. All the other writers share in Doomsday’s creation. It was Dan Jurgens’ initial idea for Superman to fight someone new, and Hulk-like. Doomsday grew out of that back and forth at the meeting. I recall that Carlin named him, after Jon Bogdanove was describing the sequence of Doomsday pounding his way out of his underground prison, “DOOM! DOOM! DOOM!” Then Carlin jumped in “Doomsday for Superman!” And there it was, though of course this was several months before anyone wrote a script or drew a page.

Did you ever anticipate that he’d become as popular as he has? 

Honestly, the original idea with Doomsday was that he appeared once, killed Superman, and was in turn killed by Superman. I remember talking about Marvel Comics and Galactus, that that was a great one time concept—he comes to eat the Earth, and that’s it.

And Reed Richards shoves the Ultimate Nullifier up his nose.

Yes, Galactus shouldn’t appear again for at least ten years. But there he was, every six months, in another Marvel book. So, the thing no one knew about Doomsday is that the story would be as popular as it became. That kind of meant that Doomsday would be around as a revolving Superman villain, I guess.

The black bagged Superman #75 was impossible to find, Jerry! And I went to the comic store twice the same week it was released. Years later I learned it had sold millions of copies and brought a bunch of long lost fans out of the woodwork. Was your mind blown by that at the time?

Yeah, none of us ever imagined the sales would be so huge! And DC broke what was protocol back then, which was to tell retailers to order enough and then not do a second printing.

Why’d they do that?

The comic stores wanted a “sold out” book to put up on the wall to sell for extra money. So with Superman #75, DC over-printed it, and as the stores were selling out, many went to newsstands and bought those copies to sell in their stores. DC did multiple printings of that comic, which helped get it into the hands of as many people who wanted it.

Were you involved in the design of the issue itself? It was and still is so damn cool with that almost horrific bloody “S” symbol.

No, I had nothing to do with that. I assume it was someone in DC’s production department, working with Mike Carlin, who came up with that.

I don’t share this story often, but I’ll never forgive myself if I don’t use the opportunity to tell you this…

Okay [laughter].

I hadn’t located the “black bag” version by Christmas of ‘92, and it was the only thing I wanted that year. My mother told me many years later that Dad drove about half an hour away to buy a copy he’d tracked down, and he spent $25 on it. Now, it was Dad’s Christmas Day tradition to film the family opening presents with his camcorder, and after all the gifts were opened that morning, he sent me to retrieve a blank VHS tape from his office. He said he was “running out of film.” I opened the filing cabinet where he told me to look, and there was Superman #75! I think I might’ve screamed [laughter].

Brandon, it’s so gratifying to have been part of so many storylines over the years that have meant a lot to fans.

To this day I have that copy still sealed amongst my sentimental treasures, and it’s one of the most precious memories of my life since my folks have now passed away. So, I really just want to thank you for that. How do you feel being such a big part of people’s lives?

You know, with Death of Superman, I hear it at every comic show I am a guest at… “Death of Superman is what started me on collecting and reading comics.” Who wouldn’t feel humbled by that?

It was so special. I remember having the funeral procession poster on my wall, and part of me really thought Superman wasn’t coming back. But I was totally along for the ride, too. Was there a time when the media hype got old for you, or did you enjoy relishing what you’d all done?

No, it wasn’t hype for us, it was just working on a satisfying storyline. So, I am proud of it. There was a faction who blamed us for the comic book crash of the mid 90’s, and that was pretty unfair.

I never saw it that way. I crack open the hardcover every couple of years, and for me it’s still as entertaining as ever.

People read our comics, and they enjoyed them. If others thought they’d make a killing with resale value, that is not the publisher’s problem. Speculators crashed the comics market, hurting readers, publishers, and retailers. Same thing happens with the stock market, and the fine arts market, etc. That’s just greed, in my opinion.

Stepping away from Superman.

Lately I’ve noticed a tendency by a small but vocal minority to downplay the love of things from our youth, and to disregard the merits of a film or story by relegating it to pure nostalgia. And I think that’s a bum rap, frankly. Do you feel nostalgic about Death of Superman? Would you change anything in hindsight?

It’s kind of pointless to second guess stuff like that, I think. Death of Superman worked because of so many factors, including the story. So, no, I think it was fine then, and fine now.

I see Death of Superman like a great album, like Fleetwood Mac’s Rumours… it’s just immutable. What’s interesting though is that you “left the band” so to speak while you were on top. I think you had your foot out the door soon after that? 

I had stepped back from drawing Superman, to just writing, a while earlier. I was slowly painting pages for my Power of Shazam standalone hardcover story in my spare time. By the time the Death of Superman got so much attention, my first child was born.

Ah, fatherhood came knocking.

Yeah, I was ready to pass off Adventures of Superman to writer Karl Kesel. Then, WildStar came together, when Image Comics was setting sales records. Al Gordon and I co-created that, and I fit it into my schedule between the remaining Superman work, and Power of Shazam work. I left Superman on good terms with everyone, and I never thought I was done with the character, to be honest. I always had more stories to tell.

Image Comics.

That was another major event from around that time that I remember vividly… the formation of Image. It felt so unique, and really kind of ballsy.

Image was huuuge. And those creators did something that others didn’t do back then. Usually a Marvel or DC creator would do a personal type project if they did something outside of the mainstream companies, something they couldn’t do for the mass market. With the Image guys, they created characters that were similar enough and mainstream enough to compare to Spider-Man, Batman, the Hulk or the X-Men.

And their audience followed them to their creator owned comics. There was, as I said earlier, a speculator market as well, that bought hundreds of extra copies for resale at a later date, which inflated most comic book sales. I knew all the principal players, and was thrilled for them all.

It must’ve been kind of risky for anyone to jump over to “indie” Image. Were you shunned by any fellow colleagues, or was it more like, okay, well there goes another one of the greats?

It was a gold rush, if you will. At that particular time, doing an Image Comic was not a financial risk because those comics were all setting sales records. As to burning bridges, there was always that possibility, but I communicated with DC, telling them that any success would bring more readers to Shazam, when I returned to finish it.

And no bridges burned?

I do feel bad to this day that my friendship with John Byrne suffered, due to the animosity he had towards Image and the founders. One day we were friends, then that door closed when WildStar was announced.

That’s a shame. But it’s never too late, right? Maybe a friendly hello could make all that past junk melt away.

I never understood his issue with me, as I would never dream to tell him or any other comic person who they should work for. So, while WildStar was a plus, the personal aspect of losing a friend over it has always stung.

Talking about bad blood reminded me that Bill Willingham recently put the Fables IP in the public domain. I absolutely applaud the chutzpah behind a move like that, but I struggle to see whether anything positive can come from it. Maybe that part comes further on down the road. What do you think?

I really don’t know what to think about the move. It’s his experience that dictated such a drastic move, but I can attest to the fact that DC Comics is no longer the company of old, since they have been fully assimilated by the Borg— er, by Warner— er, by Discovery.

[In a robotic voice] We are Legion.

The company has been a part of Warner for many years, run as a separate unit until 2013 or 2014 when they were folded directly into the Movie company.

The main thing I took from Bill’s situation was that, okay, maybe you can’t fight DC and win, but in the end DC won’t win either if they ostracize all the creatives who have helped raise them up. It’s like a Hollywood full of bean-counters without any talent.

Yeah. With each new corporate change, the people in charge seem intent on taking away many of the rights and deals we all fought for in the 1980s and 90s. So, Willingham saw no other option, I suppose.

WildStar troubles.

Before I derail us again, let’s go back to WildStar for a bit. Tell me about where that came from.

WildStar came about when Al Gordon and I would talk about James Cameron and the Terminator movies. We both liked time travel stuff, and wanted to create some new characters. I always liked the type of “closed loop” time travel story, and that’s what my intent was—to do a single story that loops back to the start, and then go back to DC to finish my Power of Shazam book. I think Al saw it more as a continuing story.

Seeing the first images of WildStar, at the time, I thought it was sort of a cross between Venom and Aquaman. I was fascinated.

Well, once we decided on each character having a parasite-based power, I figured out a giant starfish as the basis of the design.

There was supposed to be more for WildStar, wasn’t there? I think at the time they said it was “cancelled.”

It wasn’t cancelled. I think there was some confusion at the time, because the solicitations or orders from the distributors had to be cancelled for issues 4-5, due to the books being late. The market had begun to collapse or shrink by the time issue 3 was out, and Image also didn’t want to print copies that might go unpaid, due to stores closing. So it was resolicited after a short delay. Remember that Image had a ton of late books?

Oh sure. Wetworks in particular sticks out in my mind.

They were taking a lot of heat from the retailers for that. So, anyhow, issue 5 of WildStar was the end for me, as planned. I had about 45 pages of fully painted art to draw in order to get the Power of Shazam book out by early 1994. Al did another miniseries, with Rick Leonardi drawing, with my blessing. And then we did a section of new pages when we collected the 5 issues into a trade paperback.

Wasn’t there some trademark battle going on with Al Gordon, too?

The trademark issue is more complex. Bottom line is this—Al had hired a lawyer to file the trademark application, and the lawyer failed to do it. Then the WildStar solicitation appeared in the three distributor catalogs, without that trademark filing, which allowed another individual to file for the trademark, “the Wild Stars,” which blocked us from getting the trademark office to issue us our mark.

Oh, Lord.

We tried in good faith to negotiate with this individual, who only had to write a letter saying we weren’t competing properties. Then with that letter, submitted along with our application, we’d have been approved.

Well, I’ve never heard of “the Wild Stars” so I guess karma took care of whoever that person was.

It was a nightmare. And ultimately made what was a good experience for us into a bad one.

I suppose the good that came out of all of that was that you were a triple threat… a storyteller, an artist, and an inker… and by that point could maybe do whatever you wanted?

That’s the payoff. When I was a kid, I did everything on my stories, so it’s still fun to do all this. You can point and say, “I made that!” But it’s also fun to collaborate as well.

You mentioned Power of Shazam a few times, and I keep meaning to circle back to it. I wasn’t really familiar with Captain Marvel prior to that book. Were you given full creative control on the project?

I was friends with the editor, and we had done the Batman movie comic together already. So Jonathan [Peterson] and I wanted to do a Shazam book, as if it was an adaptation of a movie. It’s an origin story, and it has epic locations, and set pieces. I think we succeeded.

It’s so good… probably my favourite Shazam story next to Kingdom Come, and The Monster Society of Evil.

I’m really proud of that book.

Is there a character that you’ve created that you’re most proud of?

I can’t say I have a favorite. I am doing Proton now, a character I created in 1973, and I like the premise a lot. I have a lot of stuff mapped out, I just need to motivate myself to do it.

I love that you’re still as creative as ever. Is it because you’re writing such compelling characters? Does that keep the wheel spinning for you?

I loved writing Superman, because I think I understood the character. I am not from Krypton, but I—

I’m not so sure.

[Laughter] But I am from the Midwestern US, and I moved East to pursue my career, like Clark did when he went from Smallville to Metropolis. I met my wife here, and we got married a year before Clark and Lois got engaged. Anyhow, I think Superman is the best character ever.

Superman’s a perfect character, like Batman. And you don’t ever really get tired of them.

Neither of them. For me it’s still fun to draw all the ones I am associated with. Wish I got more opportunities to do stories with them, though.

Looking to the future.

For me the best artists stay prolific. Without ruining the plot, what’s the one story you feel that you still absolutely have got to tell?

It’s hard because I have no fixed deadline, and no one is paying my bills for me while I do this stuff. Really, I want to do some of the stories I have in my head, with my own characters and heroes.

People say never meet your heroes. Was there ever a time you got to meet one of yours and they lived up to your expectations?

I got to know Jerry Siegel and his wife Joanne, as well as Jack Kirby and his wife Roz. They were terrific people, very kind and supportive. Most that I have met and gotten to know were like that. Curt Swan was such a good guy. The comics field is mostly really good folks.

Curt Swan was one of the hardest working guys on Action Comics. Was there a time that all this started to feel like a job, maybe you felt overworked and you needed to take a step back?

Not really. I enjoyed it all.

That’s great, because it’s not easy to find that balance in life.

It’s a tough grind to work those deadlines, so it’s nice to not be on deadlines all the time. But I miss being on a monthly comic. It was always fun to go to the comic shop when a new Jerry Ordway comic was out.

A good friend of mine says "nothing of value comes without struggle." It sounds like you’ve experienced your fair share of that.

It’s all a struggle. Most people put on a smile, but everyone’s struggle is different. Paying bills, finding time to relax, worrying about the next job, it’s all stressful.

Adulting is hard. Even more so if you’re an artist, I think.

As a creator, I struggle to maintain quality in my work. Everything is hard, no matter how long you do it. But you finish one thing, and try to do better on the next job.

My sister often calls me Peter Pan because I still love comics. Do you still feel like a kid in some ways having been surrounded by superheroes for so long?

I still like superheroes, but I am definitely an adult [laughter]. No one would call me a Peter Pan.

I think she means it lovingly. I like to think so, anyway.

[Laughter] I still buy and read new comics, as I love the art form, that combination of art and words.

It’s a unique medium. Look, I know you’ve got better fish to fry, but before you go, if someone wasn’t familiar with your work, can you quickly cherry-pick three or four things from your fantastic catalog you’d recommend to them?

Well, I’d say Superman, the 1989 Batman movie adaptation, the Power of Shazam, and Crisis.

I just recently spoke with writer and producer of Batman: The Animated Series, Alan Burnett. He’s been “semi” retired for years, but Batman keeps calling… and he keeps answering the call. How do you view retirement? Do you plan to? Are you slowing down or speeding up?

I am very happy to not have constant deadlines, but I do still like the work. I will draw as long as I am able to do a decent job. I got my first pro comic work in July of 1980. That’s a long time to do comics, but I hope I can keep doing them.

Well, I know I’m not alone in hoping you stay in the game for many years to come. Okay, here’s one last curve ball—tell us something about yourself that people won’t find doing a web search.

I can build things. I can run electrical wiring, and do basic plumbing, and finish carpentry. I love working on projects around the house.

A man of many talents. This has been such a treat for me, Jerry. Thank you so much for being available, and for allowing me to meet one of my creative heroes.

My pleasure, Brandon. All the best.

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